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Preliminary ID of Schott Bomber???

Hey Gail, Aussie and Others,

I just picked up this Schott Bomber on eBay this evening for $47 and I wanted to post the pics from the listing to see if anyone could help with IDing its model and age.  

Admittedly, many of the better indicators of age/model are not pictured in these photos.  There is no pictures of the snaps or the main zip.  But there are SOME indicators present so I wanted to throw it out there to see what the Schott Forum community thinks.  

I have this jacket pegged as an 80s 174sm or possibly a 674sm.  However, the lack of the common "I.S.-674-M.S." label puts the ID in a bit of question (though the tag is a decent indicator of the year).

I know that Gail has stated in another post that "In the 1980's the main IS674MS label was changed to a woven satin...".  But I don't know if that means that the IS-674-MS Label material was merely changed from the Tyvek to the same label in Satin, OR if she means that the Label changed in the 80s to the cream "Schott N.Y.C. Sportswear" satin label.  I know that there was a similar label in the 70s that says "Schott Bros. Sportswear" and in the 80s the "Bros" was replaced with "N.Y.C."

At any rate, any information at this stage would be greatly appreciated as always. Please see the pics below. Apologies as some seem to show the same views but in different lighting, I was thinking perhaps the different pics could better allow for evaluation of the Leather type.  

Thanks for sharing your knowledge.

 

Cheers!!

 

-GW

 

 

 

Schott_Bomber__Front_View_Zipped1.jpg Schott_Bomber__Rear_View1.jpg Schott_Bomber__Unzipped__Open1.jpg Schott_Bomber__Tag1.jpg Schott_Bomber__Rear_View2.jpg Schott_Bomber__Front_View_Mannequin1.jpg Schott_Bomber__Rear_View_Mannequin1.jpg

GailH on 01/26/18 at 07:53 AM

The Schott Sportswear label in this jacket was used in the 80's so we know the jacket is from this time frame. In the 80's we offered the styles 174SM, 674SM, 574SM, 575SM and a 474SM all the same style but different types of leather. Once you receive the jacket lets hope there is the pocket ticket with the style number, so we can confirm exactly what style this is and the possible years if production. For general information the 174SM & 674SM was in our line from 1980-1987, 574SM for one year in1982, then not again until 1986-1990, style 575SM only in 1983 and the 474SM from 1983-1985.

Gail

claybertrand on 01/26/18 at 03:01 PM

Thanks Gail!!  The plot thickens!!! Well....sorta ; )

I'm sorry for posting a bit prematurely.  I didn't mean to waste anybody's time......I just am really into the whole IDing these older jackets thing now that I have learned some good info here and so I wanted to see what we could all glean from the photos.  

I'm supposed to pick up the jacket locally tomorrow and I will get back to this thread with an update when I get it.  I will be anxious to check for the pocket tag.  HOPEFULLY it has one.  

As you said Gail in another thread, it IS crazy that we are almost forensically tracking the models and dates of these decades old leather jackets.  I'm sure that when Irving Schott looked at his cigar and thought, "PERFECTO!!!"  he never imagined an Electronic Forum consisting of a Cult of avid fans who and leather jacket detectives who have never met eachother picking over the main zipper pull brand, the font size/wording of the Schott labels, and the colors of the pocket lining!!!!!!

I really value all of the opinions here if for no other reason than to learn I am not alone in my mania!!!  

 

Cheers to all!!

 

-GW/CB

AussieJagman on 01/26/18 at 07:50 PM

It's a funny thing, I have an old Cooper flight jacket that is constructionally identical, even down to the smell and feel of the leather inside and out (I've had it apart) to these fleece lined schott jackets like yours with the exception of the zip and snaps (actually, zip's the same, just the pull is different). My coooper's either dead right copy or there was some sharing.

I'm stabbing in the dark and saying yours will turn out to be a 674 from 86/7. 

That's a big jacket, size 50. Whilst I have a couple (and old and a newer) of 184SM jackets that I wear, I also have some that I've acquired along the way that I either don't or can't wear. One is a 2007 Police world tour crew jacket and it's size 52, so big that i've never worn it but its oversized furry collar came in handy cos I modified it to fit a vanson I altered last year.

reginald on 01/26/18 at 07:56 PM

Gail and all, I do hope one day there could be a catalogue of all the models. One example of each would be enough. I wonder where in new york city I can possibly go to find deadstocks of these old models. 

AussieJagman on 01/26/18 at 08:02 PM

I doubt one example of each woudl be enough - it'd probably end up like the Shugart catalogue of antique American pocket watches - showing all the different variations of each and maybe a thousand pages long......

claybertrand on 01/26/18 at 09:50 PM

A CATALOGUE!?!!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!  

WE DON'T NEED NO STINKIN' CATALOGUES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! ; )

What would we all do with our time????!?!?!!?!?!?!?!?!?!?! What would we bother Gail about??!?!!?!?!?!?!?!?! Lol....

Seriously its a novel idea for sure Reg.  As Aussie points out though, it could also be a true Rabbit Hole to go down with all of the wrinkles in the Schott production history.  Not that it shouldn't be attempted.  Perhaps the best Catalogue may only represent 75-85% of the models that were made but that would certainly be a good chunk of visual info.  Overlaps in use of labels/hardware from year to year and things of that nature would still make some IDs not 100% but a lot of us are "Ballparking" anyway so at least it would make for a good reference if it existed.  

Kinda would take the fun out of our Speculatory Identifications though!!!  LOL.... (I'm saying this tongue in cheek of course).

Aussie, thanks for your opinion on this bomber.  Honestly, I don't really do the bomber look and mostly prefer the Moto styles but I decided the price wasn't bad and its local pick up so no shipping costs.  I find the bombers fit me shorter than even the Cafe Racers do.  I actually have an older Schott Perfecto Cafe Racer that is a 50 and it fits me pretty pretty decently.  I wear closer to a 44 though in modern measurements.  Regarding your age estimate, perhaps the Main Zipper pull can shed more light on the ID as to date.  For sure this is an 80s jacket as indicated by the label.  I think your 86-87 guess is spot on (possibly give er take a year or two).   

For me I don't wear my jackets for riding a motorcycle so I prefer a more relaxed fit.  However, this gets as Gail has put it, "DICEY" when trying to buy Vintage Cafe Jackets (expecially Cafe Racers) Online.  

1.) Cafe Racers are made to fit snug to reduce wind drag.

2.) Vintage Sizing is much smaller for reasons I won't go into but let's just say, Americans used to be healthier.

3.) I personally prefer a little roomier fit and don't really like jackets that fit on the short side.

All of this amounts to me generally buying bigger sizes especially in more vintage jackets.  Now this one is a little later model being mid to late 80s as per our speculation but I figured I would see how it fits and decide what to do afterward.  The price wasn't bad so I took a bit of a chance.  The seller provided measurements that implied the size 50 fit smaller than indicated too so I felt ok picking it up. 

Let's get to work on that Catalogue people!!!!!!!!  : )

 

Cheers!

-GW/CB  

 

 

GailH on 01/27/18 at 07:54 AM

I am sure that when Irving Schott started this company in 1913, he had no clue what he was creating and what would become his legacy. A catalog would be great, but I do not think we could ever get all the information of all the jackets Schott has made through over 100 years. Not to mention the special production lots, private label and limited edition styles. I would not even know where to begin and I am much too old to even begin to put a catalog together. As most of you know I am semi-retired and work from home on this forum. The only reason I am able to help you guys is that I remember most of these styles as I started working for Schott in 1981. Being the purchasing agent I also know about the approximate years I purchase certain items used on our jackets. I know some of you have already purchased our 100th Anniversary Book, which has a lot of information on our jackets, with dates of production on jackets, labels used and multiple photos of the most popular styles, along with photos of the rare vintage jackets. I think this book is the closest you can get to a catalog or possible doing some searching on this forum as we have covered many jackets here. 

Gail

claybertrand on 01/28/18 at 01:35 PM

For purposes of finality and closure in the investigation into the age and model of this bomber I am posting this semi determinative update.

I picked up the jacket yesterday afternoon and immediately went into the pockets tag hunting.  There is indeed a pocket tag indicating, as Gail had suggested was a possibility, this model is a 574sm which I believe is the lower price point pebbled cowhide version of the 674 that Schott offered in the mid to late 80s.  As Gail and Aussie have mentioned, this style was a universal fad and EVERYONE made this jacket it seems.  Aussie even suggested the similarity could perhaps be due to some shared manufacturing or contract productions of these made by one manufacturer for another.  Could be.  I have seen similar Schotts, Coopers, Excelled, Sears, and numerous other makers of nearly this identical model.  It has the faux sherpa lining and faux mouton collar which is common in the other makers jackets across the board.  

The Jacket fit is actually not bad at all for such a seemingly large size.  Aussie had expressed that it could be perhaps too big to wear but this is not the case.  The fit isn't bad for my frame and fit preferences and it may run relatively smallish if it is an older fit style predating the updates Schott did that modernized the fit in their jackets through the 90s.  

The entirety of the tag numbers are not super visible so I am not posting a pic but here is how the numbers read:

0029  030

574SM

50

So the model and size are clear enough (we already knew it was a size 50).  

My only remaining question is whether the 5th digit in the first row of numbers on this age of jacket represents the last digit of the jacket's production year as Gail has explained is the case with the longer bar code numbers??

Does the 5th number indicate a date in this model or are they just bundle and lot numbers???  If the 5th number IS indicative, that would have to make it likely a 1990 vintage or MAYBE a 1980 (not likely).  It can't be a 2000 model so 1990 would be the winner by default almost.    

Can someone clarify whether the dating method of looking to the 5th digit in the numbers would apply here?? 

 

Cheers!!

-GW/CB

 

reginald on 01/28/18 at 03:43 PM

i suddenly was in the mood to hunt for new old stock Schott flight jacket in the SM line. Went to the familiar vintage stores in the city that used to turn up one sort of gem or the other, no luck this weekend. All gone. Those days are over. Today, im at 10 feet single in Brooklyn, thought they’d get some cool stuff, as three months ago I did see two NOS Highwayman style jackets, one was even my size but arms are too short. Today, no, all old, well used ones. Just as hopes all seem lost, I found one! NOS, steerhide, Talon zipper. Not my size but good enough. Here’s some picture. 

34E2BE68FA59490BB689AB32724714BA1.jpeg F789C3CEBB094763A6CE463DCC438BC21.jpeg C0B052B2B58C4E06B62C13A5188E7F311.jpeg 43F1C8350FEE45559514CB6669022FE21.jpeg

claybertrand on 01/28/18 at 05:08 PM

Nice clean oldie!!!!!  Schott New Old Stock is hard to come by on the West Coast.  I'm sure much of it seeps/has seeped out to stores in NY.  I'm sure there are some interesting finds in the NY Vintage stores.  I'd love to give them a look when I come to NYC.   

 

Nice find though man!!!! If you wouldn't mind, what did you get it for?? 

 

Cheers. 

 

-GW/CB

reginald on 01/28/18 at 05:43 PM

ah, I didn’t buy it. Not my size. They sell it for like $200. This is a Japanese owned store & is sort of a tourist trap. They take great pride in thenselves but things can be overpriced. Lots of deadstock military items and jeans. 

claybertrand on 01/28/18 at 06:57 PM

Oh I see.  I used to dig through L.A. ThriftStores for gems.  Vintage stores sorta ruined the fun of it for me when I was younger.  I had more time to roam through ThriftStores back then but these days, I dig Vintage places that already have gathererd the good stuff even if you pay 10-25 times the price.  I bought an Armani Suit once for $4.60 at Salvation Army.  Nicest quality suit I evern owned.  

I hate Tourist Traps of all kinds (who doesn't!?!?) so I would try to seek out the real places that are more known by the local Vintage lovers if possible when I visit.  But you never know what you may find and where.  Sometimes you can really find deals just for ducking in and looking in a place for 10 minutes.  

Thanks for posting that info man.  

 

-GW/CB

reginald on 01/28/18 at 09:42 PM

Gail, now I wonder if you could help me ID the era of my own 674 MS? No pocket tag, Talon zipper, cotton net pockets. The underside of pocket flap is cotton instead of polyester. 

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GailH on 01/29/18 at 07:52 AM

First to CLAYBRAND and your question: Based on the pocket ticket not having a barcode we know the jacket was produced prior to 1993. The numbers on the pocket ticket are the Lot # 0029 and the bundle # 030, neither represent the year. The pocket ticket did confirm the style to be the 574SM and we did offer the 574SM in 1982 for one year and then again in 1986-1990. Possibly the name on the front zipper pull can narrow down the time frame, what name is on the pull?

Second to REGINALD and your question: The jacket appears to be from the late 70's to early 80's.

Gail

claybertrand on 01/29/18 at 02:00 PM

Thanks Gail----great as always!!!

DAMN IT, I meant to include the Zipper Pull info.  I'm sorry I didn't include that detail even knowing how indicative it is.  The Main Zipper Pull is YKK.  Perhaps this can narrow it down to the narrowest we can get the ID on this one. 

 

Cheers!

GW/CB

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