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lining in horsehide jackets

I just saw a posting on a website that showed a Schott HH with a lining between the leather and jacket lining to "stiffen" the jacket. I have a Schott 141 naked leather and Legendary Black Stallion or Black Horse HH ...do these also have the inner lining ...thank you.

 

P. Strassberger

Gail on 04/02/09 at 09:35 AM

Peter,  You also sent an email to me in regards to this question.  In your email you also asked about your 141 jacket.  This is the reply I sent  to your email you sent me.

The 141 does not have this fusing in the jacket and is a cowhide jacket which is a totally different hide type then a horsehide. We did use the fuse in some horsehide jackets, depending on the age of the jacket. Once a horse reaches full maturity, they are not inclined to expand their body size tremendously. This causes tensile weakness. Horsehide may be thick but the fibers holding it together are denser than they are flexible, which can cause a weakness in a hide. To avoid this from happening, we insure the best protection we can to prevent any problems. Since horsehides are no longer available in the US and are not as plentiful as a cowhide the selection of hides are less. Some horsehides are 60 sq ft, others are down to 34 sq ft. This indicates a mix of both old and young, strong and weak, well fed and skinny animals. In addition the age and stress related issues with each individual animal hide, also reflects the hides. Horsehide is still a very thick and strong leather, we want to provide the best hide in a jacket to insure the jacket we make provides years of wear to the buyer. Many vintage horsehide jackets are still around which shows their strength, we are just improving the hide to add extra strength.

jac on 04/13/09 at 02:22 AM

Gail, some questions that concern many of us, 

-please;

 

Are the jackets Schott makes for Legendary really 4oz as advertised?

Is this 'fusing' used in all of the horsehide jackets made for Legendary?

Does this translate as all of the Legendary/Schott horsehide being old and thin?

Is this fusing used to beef-up the weight?

If you want to provide the best hide, why would this fusing even be necessary?

Why would the best need improving?

If one should get repeatedly soaked, will this fusing take forever to dry,  and possibly rot?

Doesn't Horween of Chicago still tan horsehide?

Please give us the real story, before we ALL tear the linings out of our Legendarys to find out just what we've got and their name is ruined. 

- A LOT of folks are watching this post.

Gail on 04/13/09 at 10:59 AM

I really think you have misunderstood my explantion, both Legendary and Schott jackets are produced to the highest quality leather we can provide to our customers. Both Legendary and Schott have been around too many years and there is no need for either company to rely on false adverstising to sell a jacket. Our customers know us and we know our customers they know we provide the best product and service we can.

The horsehide is not a man made product  it is an animal, the weight of the hide can vary from 3-1/2 - 4 oz. just as your own skin can be thicker in areas and thinner in other areas the animal is no different. I thought I provided a explanation that was not confusing in regards to the fusing and why it was used. Unfortunately you did not understand the use of this material in regards to the hide's texture and flexibility of the hide.

Why would anyone tear their jacket apart is beyond me, this material is used to enhance the leather if you read my previous post as to why it is used. The leather is still a heavy hide with all the advantages a horsehide jacket can provide for durability and protection. It will not damage the hide and it will not rot if it becomes wet, if anything it would add more protection. Be more worried if your jacket becomes that wet to soak through this thick hide to reach your linings, as this will damage the leather. You are looking at this as a negative material used in the jacket when it is a positive addition to the jacket. Gail

jac on 04/13/09 at 12:31 PM

Gail, thanks for responding.

Many good companies have, over the years, had their product's quality and name compromised by material availability and quality. We knew them, they knew us, etc... this does not justify or legitimize side-stepping our inquiries. We, as your patrons, want to know what we're buying.

So you are saying your horsehide regularly runs between approximately 3.5 - 4 oz alone.

I am well aware horsehide is not manmade, as I'm not stupid. I have owned countless leather items and know full well the variations and imperfections.  Many patrons take notice at the fact that this fusing method is not something we see other manufacturers do to their products. They tear out their linings because they fear they've been deceived. Our concern should come as no surprise.

If you have issues dealing with Horween, it's no dishonor to say so, but last I heard they still tan horsehide in this country, FYI. Parts of your explanation sound as though the majority of available horsehide comes from starved, geriatric horses.

Don't get me wrong, we love our jackets and find them to be quality, but we arrive at the same conclusions from your explanation so far- that the hide requires fusing to give the jacket adequate substance. The longevity of horsehide historically seems misdirected in the explanation as it only serves to refresh our question; "so why fuse?"

 

Taurus on 04/14/09 at 03:28 PM

I've been watching this on the other forums too and this brought me outta my lurk. Gotta say I'm not to thrilled with this answer either.  Fusing depending on the age of the jacket? What is this stuff? Felt? Enhance leather with felt?

Jason_Schott on 04/15/09 at 10:04 AM

Gail has forwarded this thread to me and I am very concerned that there is still such a level of discomfort.
I want to be very clear that, to date, we have had NO problems with any of our horsehide products and that I am not aware of a single return for this ( or anything that could be considered a related ) issue from any part of the world. Please, if anyone has a horse hide jacket on which the skin is failing, send us the details by return.
Be assured that, as always, we will stand behind our products 100%. That’s what makes us Schott!

Taurus on 04/15/09 at 04:45 PM

Are all your horsehide jackets "enhanced"?

Artic on 04/15/09 at 05:50 PM

I'm not sure if it's worth mentioning, however there is a poser's forum, called Styleforum, where some New Worlds afficienados started slating the Schott horsehide jackets for having 'fused' horsehide >3mm jackets with the fused lining removed. 

I must admit, that reading the thread did put me off a little from considering the Schott horsehide, until it became evident that the posters were talking out of the horse's ass rather than the mouth.  

The Styleforum comments seem  ridiculous, given that the New Worlds horsehide isn't even tested nor CE approved, and won't stand up to the rigour of a proper CE certified jacket, yet its owners subjectively claim that they are 'tougher' than Schott or Legendary horsehide (4mm). 

For its price point, the Schott horsehide looks like the best option out there.  I'd love to see what limited edition ones are coming out too since I'm in the market for one as well.

 

 

RAOUL on 04/15/09 at 08:00 PM

Styleforum?, mmhhhh, the forum for the hairdressers comunity?, pink HH jackets in 4 mm?.... .

 

add on april 16.

 

I don't understand why people is making such a big deal about that detail in the jackets, in the street people use to say to all my Schott jackets that they are great, where do you get it, how much do you paid........, 3 or 3,5 mm is more than enought, sometimes is unconfortable when i'm driving,  4mm or more is in my opinion ridiculous, but if someone wants to over pay 500 dollars in LW, is your money and you don't have to worry about that horrible fuse, fuze, fusing or whatever that is the name of that.

 

Have fun people and i recomend you to do something better whit your lifes instead of been looking for problems in products made for a company whit more than 90 years of first quality.

 

I have to leave guys because i have to feed my dogs, take care of my girlfriend, call my mother to say hello and another really important things.

 

Pd. what is the new topic in styleforum, where no to go whit your LW jacket to get your manicure or pedicure done, best place to go whit your LW jacket for a facial.

Taurus on 04/16/09 at 03:10 PM

Don't know about any styleforum, that's not where I saw the pix of the schott with the torn open felt lining. I see we're quick to hand out insults here. I'll be placing my order where they give better answers then "Because we're Schott!"

jaegodylan on 04/16/09 at 05:33 PM

This post seems cloaked in mystery and innuendo.

I see the Schott responses as logical and to the point.. can someone please share the forum where this is being hotly debated? I have searched Styleforum.. ouch. Fedoralounge and more.. lets see the link and judge for ourselves.

 

ron521 on 04/16/09 at 06:59 PM

Here is the link, for what its worth...

 

http://www.thefedoralounge.com/showthread.php?t=39922

Artic on 04/16/09 at 07:39 PM

Yes .,..the 'stripped horsehide Schott'  photos were posted on one of those hairdressers forums...styeforum or fedoralounge.  Lol.   

I guess the guy had a spare doughnut and decided to rip out the lining to make himself look slimmer....

 

wolverine on 04/17/09 at 10:20 AM

SIMPLY CLOWNSHOES...

 

Having read the various posts on this topic from a few "newbies" a cannot help but laugh.  It is apparent that these individuals do not have a clue and instead just want to complain.  Since none of them even know the difference between chrome tanning and vegatable tanning I suggest you go to this link...http://www.holsters.org/which.htm...spend about 5 minutes...maybe 20 in your cases and EDUCATE yourselves on some basic info.  Now go away...stop reading this...and first get a clue.

 

Now for the people who get it, here is my take on this bonding/enhancing process and why I linked over to an article about making gun holsters out of either cow or horse:

 

1.  The author is clearly very knowledgeable and experienced in leatherwork...he does not appear to have an agenda.

 

2.  This article shows pictures of the different parts of the hide and gets into some of the uses and drawbacks of these very different "areas".

 

3.  The author clearly gives examples of how availability/quality has made cow actually better than horse.

4.  There is VERY little info out there on the internet that gets into detail about HH.  Although this centers on vegatable tanned hides,  it helps to explains a few thngs that apply to todays HH.  ie. expensive, rare, type of cut/quality.

The bottom line:  If a leathermaker had customers who came along with an UNLIMITED BUDGET they could use several hides, cut out the very best pieces and put together a single jacket  that would be far superior in many areas to what is being produced today.  But none of the cheap bastards who are reading this would want to pay a price that would easily be double or triple the cost of todays HH jackets.  It is not that Schott uses cheap HH or wants to try to fool anyone...they want to stay competitive and offer quality workmanship at a blue collar price (this is my quote so don't even think about stealing it).  The fact remains that due to the high cost of HH,  the patterns are laid out so that there is almost zero waste.

 

A single Q for Jason Schott, on the HH jackets that have fused panels, is it the entire jacket with the fusing or just the front and back panel?

 

GO SCHOTT

 

Wolverine

jaren on 04/21/09 at 09:31 PM

Hello all. First off, I resent any posters here who have nothing but infantile, immature comments on 2 boards I frequent: www.styleforum.net and www.thefedoralounge.com/ Both are immensely useful resources, and the knowledge at TFL with respect to leather jackets is incomparable. So those of you too ignorant to know better would be wise not to mouth off on things you know nothing about. The fact of the matter is that good quality FQHH should NOT need any kind of supporting layer underneath, I have multiple Aero leather jackets made with 5.0 oz hide that is uniform and superb, and not one person I know of, and that is dozens, that has an Aero FQHH has this type of "fusing layer." Further, Horween in Chicago absolutely does produce plenty of chrome-tanned FQHH, and AFAIK Aero uses it. If Schott or any other manufacturer is unable to source hides of that quality, then that is their problem. John Goodwear also manufactures superb jackets, as he made extraordinary efforts to track down a tanner who could make what he wanted. If Schott cannot replicate top-level hides at a price that they can sell reasonably, they should just come out and say it. I am familiar with LW and am not aware of any "fusing" they do in their jackets, and this can be determined by calling them, or even purchasing their HH which they now sell on Ebay direct to be used in whatever leather product you'd like it for. I must say that I am really surprised and disappointed at the lack of straight answers by Schott and the arrogant ignorance presented by a number of posters here who have 1/100th the level of knowledge that can be casually found at TFL or vintageleatherjackets.org. FYI: I have no business/financial relationship or affiliation whatsoever with ANY leather jacket manufacturer.

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