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MrRebel

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Dating jacket 184SM

Hi Gail,

I found this new old stock 184SM with label for sale, and I'm very interested in buying it. Could you date it for me and perhaps tell me: if a jacket were not worn for quite a long time and stored in a box or cupboard, would that be harmfull for the leather?

the barcode is: 1643307058

I will add some pictures as wel.

thx for your time and info!

Best regards,

Mr. Rebel

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Gail on 06/02/17 at 08:02 AM

Based on several things about this jacket I can confirm it was produced in 1993, the first year we started using barcodes, the 5th digit representing the year. The 5th digit is a "3" on this jacket, along with the Schott logo lining, the metal zip-out zipper and the no-name front zipper all confirm the year to be 1993. Storing a jackwt in a box should not be harmful to the leather unless it was covered by the plastic bag as leather needs to breath. Based on it being stored for 24 years, the jacket could feel dry, you can condition the leather with a all natural leather condition. 

Gail

MrRebel on 06/02/17 at 08:46 AM

Hi Gail,

Ok, great! Thx for your valuable info!

cheers.

Mr. Rebel

MrRebel on 06/03/17 at 09:28 AM

Hey Gail,

I asked the seller for a picture of the label inside the left hand side pocket. I'm a bit supriesed to see that the number is different than the barcode on the label in the previous picture. What could this mean? Are those numbers suppose to match? Or is it a label from a different jacket? And what does this nr tell you? 

Thx in advance. 

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Gail on 06/05/17 at 07:54 AM

Dear Mr. Rebel,

You are absolutely correct the barcode numbers are different which is interesting. The pocket ticket would be the correct barcode number and it would still confirm the jacket was produced in 1993, for all the same reasons I already provided. Looking at the hangtag you can see that after the style #184SM and color BLK the tag is missing a piece of the tag where the size number would be. I am thinking these hangtags are from another jacket that was a different size, thus the missing piece of the tag. This would be my best guess, unfortunately we never know the complete history of any vintage jacket. The jacket is a vintage 1993 jacket, but would not be considered new old stock as the numbers on the pocket and hangtag do not match. 

Gail

MrRebel on 06/05/17 at 08:26 AM

Hi Gail, 

Thank you for your valuable info and thoughts. I think I will confront the seller with the different nrs and see what he says. Maybe I can get a discount. 

Thanks again,

Mr Rebel

Gail on 06/06/17 at 06:23 AM

Keep us posted on the seller's answer, now I am curious too. Hopefully you can get a little discount since the tags are not the original tags from this jacket. The jacket does look in good condition though for it's age of 24 years, so if the price is right I wouldn't hesitate to purchase.

Gail

MrRebel on 06/07/17 at 10:14 AM

Hi Gail,
Finally after 2 days and sending the seller 2 messages he responded to my question.
I was very surprised with his response: He said that I was threatening him to give me a discount or that I would report him to eBay for advertising misleading information about an object he sells, and that he would call eBay to report me. I only asked him to give me a clarification why the nrs were different and that a discount wouldn't be misplaced. The only thing I said then was that if he wouldn't respond to my questions, I would contact eBay.

Anyway, this doesn't seem like a normal reaction to me. So I tried to reason with the guy. After a couple of message's he confessed that his uncle used to have a Leather Jacket Store in NYC, and that he still had some of his old stock. So he claims he might have taken the wrong jacked out of the box where he took the pictures from of the inside pocket label.. And he ended his message by saying that he would block me on eBay due to my 'bizarre and threatening' behavior. I was just being careful, I live in Belgium and so I must be very sure that an item is 200% authentic prior to purchase it online. We have high import taxes/duties + costs for everything that comes outside the EU. In case of returning an item, that could mean a potentially high financial loss.

Anyway, sorry for this whole story, but now you know. And for all other Schott fans over here, always be careful who you're dealing with on internet.

I do have a side question: I spotted another nice 184 SM, only the seller claims there’s no inside pocket label. Is this possible? I’ll post some pictures here, so maybe you might tell me more about it?
Thanks a lot.

Mr. Rebel

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Gail on 06/08/17 at 07:16 AM

Hi Mr. Rebel,

WOW! What a story. I think his negative response confirms the fact that he was caught in a lie. As with any vintage item, when in original packaging it always increases the price of the item, whether it's a Barbie doll or in this case a jacket. He was also possibly afraid you would report him to Ebay, and the reason he tried to threaten you. You did nothing wrong and you had confirmed information from Schott proving he was not truthful. Once he became aware that people interested in the jacket were knowledgeable and able to check directly with Schott on the jacket, he knew he was caught. He had to know since the size on the hangtag was torn off, he knew the size on the tag did not match the size of the jacket. We can only hope that a potential buyer will be as wise and will check it out and pay a higher price thinking the jacket is "New/Old Vintage Stock".

On your next jacket in question, it is very possible the ticket has been removed by the previous owner. Unfortunately some folks do not realize what the ticket represents so they just remove it. Looking at the photos the jacket appears to be in nice condition. Looking at the photos, I can only estimate the age by the metal zip-out lining zipper. We have not used these aluminum zip-out liner zippers in our jacket for over 15 years. I do understand the high cost of shipping and it is always best to get all the information on a jacket that you can before you purchase. If I can help with any additional questions please let me know.

Gail

AussieJagman on 06/25/17 at 10:53 PM

Just to follow up on the 184SM jacket on ebay that began this thread.

I bought a 184SM through buy-it-now from the seller in question on ebay. The jacket arrived at my place in Australia today and has the cloth pocket tag (ending in 7020) that is pictured in MrRebel's post and has the correct bar coded hang tag (with size printing intact, not the corner chewed off) that matches that pocket tag so it appears that the seller was indeed telling the truth in that he really did have two of these jackets and simply photographed the hang tags of one for the advert but accidently photographed the pocket tag of the other one when asked for a photo hence the appparent "mismatch" that isn't actually a mismatch in real life at all.

I am very pleased that I made the ebay purchase as the jacket is very clearly NOS with tags intact. It smells and feels new, fits me perfectly and was a huge saving over the price of a new 184SM. It's my third Schott jacket and I love it. Regards, Dave.

Gail on 06/26/17 at 08:11 AM

Dave,

I am glad you are enjoying your jacket and that the hangtag barcode matches the barcode number on the pocket. I think the problem was the sellers response to the potential buyer made the jacket more questionable in what he originally stated. Owners who purchase and collect Schott jackets are well aware what to look for when purchasing a jacket. Once they see the barcode numbers do not match or other things about a jacket that do not make sense they question. The seller should have immediately explain that he had several jackets and had mixed up the hangtags for the jacket. Possibly sending the photo of the correct hangtag for that jacket, remember he was selling the jacket as New/Old stock which would require the proof of the hangtag. Going off on the potential buyer with threats only put the legitimacy of the jacket more in question. In regards to the ending numbers 7020 on the barcode are sequence numbers for bucket sizing, the first 4 numbers 6065 is the lot number and the 5th digit is the year it was produced. These first 5 numbers would confirm that the jackets were made together in the same lot and in the same year.

Gail

AussieJagman on 06/26/17 at 08:51 AM

Hello Gail,

I think we probably only got half the story here or at least only one person's interpretation. It's quite possible  the seller became wary after MrRebel asked for a discount based on the tags not matching (as he said here that he'd try to do) and told the seller (as he wrote in this thread) that if the seller "wouldn't respond to my questions, I would contact ebay". There may be a language thing going on there but I think if I was the seller I could easily have perceived (either incorrectly or correctly) that statement as an attempt to use a threat of reporting to ebay as means to get a discount and reacted by barring the potential buyer just as this seller did.

I went through the seller's sales history prior to buying and saw that during the past year he has sold quite a few NOS Schott 184SM jackets in incremental sizes in both brown and black and all appeared to have correct tags clearly pictured and fully intact with sizes matching the jackets they were attached to so I saw no reason to doubt the idea that he was selling off stock from an old shop.

Given the quantity he had already sold I figured he had no worthwhile reason to bother trying dupe someone over a moth eaten size tag on 1 jacket (especially at his listing prices of between $200 and $300 a jacket). As far as I can see, the tags themselves were never mixed up, they stayed on their correct jackets all allong, all that got mixed up was which jacket's photo he'd used in the listing.

I thought the seller's price on the size 44 was quite acceptable (whether the tags matched or not, since I didn't care, I just wanted an unworn jacket) so I bought and paid without questioning him on any of it but my follow up emailings regarding shipping found the seller to be responsive, amiable and polite so it seems that we can often read people in different ways.

Either way, the jacket's being worn comfortably by me tonight in winter in the Australian bush (it's minus 2 celsius already) and its being manufactured in 1993 is a nice co-incidence since that's the year I got married. 

I also have a brown 184SM from 1985 which I can now retire to special occasion use. I was going to buy a new one from Schott's online US site but when the system quoted me US$171 for shipping to Australia I baulked at it so the NOS one came along at just the right time.

I like the feel of my new/old Schott jacket so much that I'm beginning to wonder if I'll ever want to wear the new Vanson motorcycle jacket that I ordered at the same time which is due to arrive tomorrow.

Gail on 06/27/17 at 08:59 AM

Your probably correct that he took offense when he requested a discount. But we all know that if something vintage is new and you have the original hangtags for proof, the item becomes more expensive. So since this person being aware of barcodes not matching asked for a discount, because the proof was not viable. My best comparison would be a vintage car with all the serial numbers of all the parts matching on the car and no mileage on the speedometer to the same vintgae type car that has replacements parts and over 100,000 miles. You would not want to pay the same price for both cars. I can understand why he asked for a discount and maybe the seller is now more aware of the barcodes and realize he needs to post correctly as people check. I think there was a mis-understanding on both parties unfortunately, but I think neither party should take offense. When purchasing used items the buyer has a responsibility and should check out anything before buying.

Gail

MrRebel on 06/29/17 at 12:33 PM

Hello there,

Thank you Dave for your input and sharing us your experience, that’s very interesting! And thank you Gail for giving me the benefit of the doubt. I guess you’re both correct and that there are indeed two sides to every story.
I might have been a little bit too ‘blunt’ on my messages to the seller on eBay. And he might have taken it as a threat. I guess I was a bit impatient and I had to send him 2 messages before he would answer me and explain how he took a picture of the wrong jacket’s label. That’s probably why he might have taken my second message as an offence or threat. If there’s really something you want on eBay, you sometimes have to be on the ball.

Anyway, I apologized too him the next day or so.. And as soon as I saw your post on this thread, I decided to start looking for other jackets on eBay again. Today I saw he had another one listed in the same size. So I sent him another message, telling him again that I was being blunt and apologized. So I asked him if I still could purchase a jacket from him. He almost immediately replied and was very kind in his message. He even admitted that he also could have done better with the communication. So considering your positive experience and the great feedback from the seller, I decided to give it a ‘Schott’ and hit the ‘buy now’ button.

I’ll post more when the jacket arrives!

Cheers,
Mr Rebel.

AussieJagman on 06/29/17 at 06:58 PM

I'm glad you will end up getting a jacket after all Mr Rebel.

I have fond memories of getting my first 184SM Schott (brown) back in 1985 and now to finally have a black one in my size makes me more happy.

The leather on my new one will obviously take years to become as soft as that 32 year old brown 184SM has become (through conditioning and wear over decades that old jacket has developed the softest hand I've ever felt on a leather jacket) but the new one is definitely the most comfortable jacket I've bought since (I currently own about 20 leather jackets).

True to what I said earlier, the brand new Vanson came out of its box and got about four hour's wear before I reached for the Schott again and I've worn the Schott 18 hours a day since. That fur collar is also a real benefit in the cold Bathurst Australia winter weather. Wearing the jacket feels like being gently hugged.

If I had one complaint about the 184SM jacket as received from the seller, it would be that it came out of the box rather wrinkled (it was packed tight in a very small box in the post for eleven days) and I just didn't have the patience to wait for the wrinkles to come out with oordinary wearing so I had to use a technique to accelerate the process of un-wrinkling it. I also conditioned the leather as part of that process and whilst initially on receipt of the jacket I didn't think the leather needed conditioning, the result after conditioning indicated that it benefitted so, if you're fussy like me, you might want to think about getting one of the Schott advertised leather care kits that Gail recommends (though I used an all natural Aussie product).

I'm sure we'll all be checking here regularly to hear news of your jacket's arrival and first impressions. Regards, Dave.

Gail on 06/30/17 at 07:51 AM

Mr. Rebel,

I am glad all worked for you and your new/old stock jacket is on its way to you. As Dave mentioned he had to condition his jacket and as noted by the seller this is stock that has been stored for approximately 24 years. Possibly the jackets were stored in boxes which could enhance the folds in the jacket. Jackets also need to breath, so being stored can cause the jacket to need some conditioning. The 184SM is a Naked Cowhide leather jacket which does condition itself of sorts. Because the leather has no finish the natural oils of the leather will surface conditioning the jacket. Sometimes when storing in a warm place or if you cover your jacket is plastic, the jacket will develope a white film, this is the natural oils surfacing. This film can easily be removed by rubbing done the leather with a soft cloth or a piece of Sheepskin leather. 

A little hint on caring for leather jackets. In most car part stores you can pushase a Sheepskin mitt or shamy that you would use to polish your car, the wool of the sheepskin contains the natural oils of the hide and is great for a quick wiping down your jacket. This is a great option for motorcycle riders who want to remove dust and residue after riding.

Gail

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